Rutgers spy cam suicide

[Dobbin]

I'm somewhat skeptical that he was trying to out his roommate in the hopes that he would embrace his homosexuality and go on to a open, fulfilling life.

It's more likely he did it to humiliate him in front of his whole social circle.

I don't believe it's a hate crime, but I definitely think there should be some severe reprecussions. Again, maybe have the 4chan mutants post his parents' address or something.

Right, but I see this as possible in the mind of an 18 year old as the equivalent of pantsing someone. The idea is humiliation/"get a load of this guy!" but it isn't with the awareness that the person might break and kill themselves.

Again, I agree that the whole thing is just so stupid and pointless and tragic that I can't summon up righteous anger, in the manner that I would if it were someone who specifically beat him to death or chased him into oncoming traffic with a hateful, homophobic fury... Tied up in this tragedy is the fact that this kid still lived in a world and, one would imagine, with family, where he felt the only option, upon being publicly seen as gay by the world, was to end his life.

Between this and Giraldo, I am feeling very blue.

[Dalton]

Right, but I see this as possible in the mind of an 18 year old as the equivalent of pantsing someone. The idea is humiliation/"get a load of this guy!" but it isn't with the awareness that the person might break and kill themselves.

Again, I agree that the whole thing is just so stupid and pointless and tragic that I can't summon up righteous anger, in the manner that I would if it were someone who specifically beat him to death or chased him into oncoming traffic with a hateful, homophobic fury... Tied up in this tragedy is the fact that this kid still lived in a world and, one would imagine, with family, where he felt the only option, upon being publicly seen as gay by the world, was to end his life.

Between this and Giraldo, I am feeling very blue.

I think this is right on.  The first few months of freshman year in college were the best time of my life.  To have it end like this for someone is just... I don't even have words.

[Dobbin]

I think it's more nuanced and gray than you're making it out to be.  The guy is guilty of invasion of privacy and being an asshole, on that we totally agree.  But I have no idea what the consequences should be.  I would be unable to serve as a judge or jury in this case.  

You know, ANP board, I don't see anything unreasonable in this at all. John is saying that he doesn't know what the legal punishment for being an asshole should be, if that assholishness led to someone killing themselves.

It isn't a clear-cut case of bullying-leading-to-suicide (at least, from that article) that we've seen happen, where someone's whole life is consumed with thoughts about how to avoid the bully's next confrontation. Those cases seem more cut and dried. This appears to be one stupid, thoughtless, shitty act that might, in other circumstances, have warranted either a punch in the mouth or the pouring of the contents of the toilet into his bed, suddenly be worthy of jail time.

John's being really reasonable and thoughtful here, I think. I wouldn't conflate this with the Gibson discussion at all, they are two totally different beasts.

[LpF]

It isn't a clear-cut case of bullying-leading-to-suicide (at least, from that article)...

Based on the twitter page, I'd say it's pretty easy to call this cyber-bullying, and barring that it's a clear-as-day case of breach of privacy.

...that we've seen happen, where someone's whole life is consumed with thoughts about how to avoid the bully's next confrontation.

Is that really the officially-official Only Reason Ever that victims of bullying/public humiliation commit suicide?  Seems pretty narrow.

This appears to be one stupid, thoughtless, shitty act that might, in other circumstances, have warranted either a punch in the mouth or the pouring of the contents of the toilet into his bed, suddenly be worthy of jail time.

Under any circumstances, if the victim pressed charges and had a case then the perp would face up to 5 years.

John's being really reasonable and thoughtful here, I think. I wouldn't conflate this with the Gibson discussion at all, they are two totally different beasts.

For the record, I do regret the snarky reference to the "victim's moral fiber."

[katy]

I don't know. It isn't like when you break the law in a fashion like this, you're necessarily aware you are BREAKING THE LAW. Lights don't flash, a buzzer and an alarm don't happen. This is the twitter/facebook/youtube generation who has a much more fluid idea of personal privacy and a habit of shared video as a ubiquitous part of life.

I disagree.  There have been numerous internationally-publicized cases of prosecution of cyber-stalkers and cyber-bullies over the past few years.  We're always hearing about how Teen Sexting can lead to child porn charges.  In addition, anyone who watches any kind of "Law & Order"/"CSI"-type show (or pays attention to the tabloid press) knows that it is illegal to record and distribute someone having a sexual encounter without their knowledge.

And they're RUTGERS students, it wasn't Clown School for Potential Perverts Community College or anything.  These are smart kids.  At the very least, they would have to know that it is unbelievably unethical and cruel to do this.

I am all for intent being taken into consideration in terms of crimes that are not violent, harassing or destructive to the lives and safety of others.  If you're speeding because you were racing to get to your wife's delivery room, then yes, intent should be taken into consideration.  If you essentially sexually intruded upon someone, and harassed them to the point of suicide, then I don't think intent means much at all -- because what possible harmless, let alone positive intent might you have had for taking such horrible actions?

These two little shits destroyed someone else's life.  A completely innocent young man who did nothing wrong but be gay.  They deserve to fry in hell.

P.S.  Not that I hope to sway John "this is PROVOCATIVE!" Mel Gibson Dalton, but the notion that nobody would care if a woman was taped in a sexual encounter without her knowledge, that was then posted on the Internet, is so offensive that I honestly do not know what to say.  Um, yes, those things are prosecuted all the time.  Such actions are essentially non-physical sexual assault as far as I'm concerned.  And I don't give a shit if it was in AMERICAN PIE, I grew up with SCARFACE but if I stick my face in a pile of blow and shoot half of Miami because I'm in love with my sister, my ass still belongs in jail.

[chrisb]

And they're RUTGERS students, it wasn't Clown School for Potential Perverts Community College or anything.

To be fair, CSPPCC was his safety school.

[Amusing Pseudonym]

Unlike the Gibson thread, I feel I have immediately understood the reasoning and intent of the vast majority of John's statements here and agree with Josh's summation thereof.  

[chrisb]

It's funny how vengeful liberals get when there's a PC cause involved.  You'd never be so harsh about Muslim terrorists.  Hysterical.

Jesus Christ, John.  Yes, "liberals" want nothing more than to coddle terrorists with organically grown roses that were fertilized with the blended remains of aborted fetuses.

Please tell me that "PC" isn't an acronym for "political correctness."  Please?

[LpF]

"They both deserve to fry in hell"?  That's a crazy irrational statement in my opinion.  It's funny how vengeful liberals get when there's a PC cause involved.  You'd never be so harsh about Muslim terrorists.  Hysterical.

Fuck that shit.  A Muslim terrorist who commits an actual act of terrorism deserves punishment as determined by the legal system, just as these little shits deserve punishment as determined by same.  You're implying that being a liberal means one wants to kill someone who breaches privacy, but wants to shower Muslim terrorists with hugs and ice cream?  What the fuck ever happened to shades of grey?

[Dobbin]

And they're RUTGERS students, it wasn't Clown School for Potential Perverts Community College or anything.  These are smart kids.  

I spent a lot of my late teens in New Brunswick around Rutgers and I can tell you that this means nothing. Again, I agree that this kid is a complete and total asshole. But the legal issue is odd; how do you establish cause and intent?

This is one of those instances where, for the purposes of punishment, intent really is the key thing to establish. Civil-case wise, I'd say sue him for everything he's going to earn for the next 20 years of his life. But I'm uncomfortable with jail as a punishment for being a dick.

I mean, if there's jail time associated with charges of illegal/voyeuristic filming and distribution, then yes, by all means, he should get the maximum for those things under the law. But how do you hang the actual death on him?

I just keep on going back to how horrible it is, in 2010, at Rutgers, how it is possible for a kid to be so in a panic over being gay that it comes to this.

I had asshole roommates in college who, if there were cell-phones with cameras, would have filmed each other with their girlfriends. I hated those dudes and after they stopped being my roommates, they probably went on to lead normal, suburban lives and probably continue to be assholes, but this could have easily been them.

It isn't with any affection for this kind of person that I'm talking here. But it is a strange gray area when it becomes official as to what to do with this kid. And yeah, 18 to me is still on the tail-end of kid.

[Dalton]

Fuck that shit.  A Muslim terrorist who commits an actual act of terrorism deserves punishment as determined by the legal system, just as these little shits deserve punishment as determined by same.  You're implying that being a liberal means one wants to kill someone who breaches privacy, but wants to shower Muslim terrorists with hugs and ice cream?  What the fuck ever happened to shades of grey?

I was saying (and have deleted because I don't want to get into it) that in the past Kate had pleaded for tolerance and understanding of the Muslim terrorists.  But yeah that really has no place in this discussion though I think her latest post here is really nuts.

[LpF]

But how do you hang the actual death on him?

They're not.  It's the secret filming, breach of privacy charge that he's going down on (if he does indeed go down).  I believe the article said four separate counts?  Unless I'm misunderstanding (and I very well may be) that's up to 5 years per count.

To be honest, though, I wouldn't mind one bit if the judge took the actual death into consideration when sentencing.

[Dalton]

Fuck that shit.  A Muslim terrorist who commits an actual act of terrorism deserves punishment as determined by the legal system, just as these little shits deserve punishment as determined by same.  You're implying that being a liberal means one wants to kill someone who breaches privacy, but wants to shower Muslim terrorists with hugs and ice cream?  What the fuck ever happened to shades of grey?

I can remember back on another message board Josh Dobbin had just watched one of the many beheading videos released in the wake of 9/11 (the guy's name was Nick, I think) and he expressed anger at what had been done.  A couple of people actually were saying "But Josh you've got to understand what we've done to THEM".  So yeah not all liberals but they are out there.

[LpF]

I can remember back on another message board Josh Dobbin had just watched one of the many beheading videos released in the wake of 9/11 (the guy's name was Nick, I think) and he expressed anger at what had been done.  A couple of people actually were saying "But Josh you've got to understand what we've done to THEM".  So yeah not all liberals but they are out there.

Those liberals kinda have a point, they're just incredibly fucking tonedeaf.  "We started it" or "We've done our part to make shit worse" arguments have no place in that particular discussion.  But in the broader discussion of Muslim Terrorism vs. Western Society?  Sure.  Bring that idea up THEN.  But not in response to a fucking beheading video.  That's like going up to a date rape victim and saying "Yeah, but sometimes it's just a miscommunication exacerbated by both parties being highly inebriated."  You may have a point, but now is not the time.

[Dalton]

Those liberals kinda have a point, they're just incredibly fucking tonedeaf.  "We started it" or "We've done our part to make shit worse" arguments have no place in that particular discussion.  But in the broader discussion of Muslim Terrorism vs. Western Society?  Sure.  Bring that idea up THEN.  But not in response to a fucking beheading video.  That's like going up to a date rape victim and saying "Yeah, but sometimes it's just a miscommunication exacerbated by both parties being highly inebriated."  You may have a point, but now is not the time.

I would agree with this.