Rutgers spy cam suicide

[BrianLynch]

It's scary out here.

[Luke Erik]

Is it safe?

[katy]

Is it safe?

NEVER

[JCEFalconi]

There's no reason to think Ravi will ever attempt to do anything like that again, and it's a clear message to kids thinking about using their tech to prank people (using it for the perpetrator's sexual gratification is another story and after some light googling seems like it's always given harsher sentences).

The sentence is lenient but fair considering the factors, anything more than 3 months seems to me it would be more in the service of spite rather than justice. Damages for emotional distress will probably be awarded in a civil suit.

[Dalton]

1) Maybe they were friends and it was just a harmless prank.  (Not true on either count)

I said this very early on when the news first broke long before any info came out about what actually happened.

2) Kids don't know what privacy means nowadays, in the age of the Internet.

Younger people's perception and expectations of privacy are different now than they were pre-internet.  

3) The media made him do it, he saw it in AMERICAN PIE.  (The heavy metal makes people do Satanic murder defense!)

A very skewed and simplistic version of what I actually said.  I never suggested this could or should be used in court.

4) Clementi was already out to his family (by a few weeks) and some other gay guys on the Internet (although, obviously, not his roommate or anyone else he went to school with) so it's fine.

I never said "so it's fine".  You're making shit up again.

5) Clementi wasn't "all that upset" by being outed.  (No evidence to this effect and much to the contrary.)

He wasn't outed.  He was already out.  He was obviously upset at Ravi's actions, that much is clear.

6) Hate crime legislation shouldn't exist.  (Because it's always fun when straight white males argue this!)

It shouldn't but this has nothing to do with me defending anybody.

7) If you lived in cities for 20 years, you wouldn't see anything wrong with outing someone.

Yeah again never said that.

8. This kind of harassment happens all the time.  Boys will be boys!  (bad boys, bad boys)

It does.  I think the judge was right to take into consideration Ravi's age, and look at WHAT ACTUALLY HAPPENED in the case rather than going purely on emotion.

9) Most people just "laugh off" at being harassed and spied on.

Never said this.  Ever.

10) If Clementi had been with a girl, nothing would have happened to Ravi.  (Not true at all -- and certainly SHOULDN'T be true.)

I still think that.  But that doesn't mean I'm defending Ravi.

See, you boil down more complex and nuanced points I've made than then skew them with your own bias and agenda.

[katy]

I said this very early on when the news first broke long before any info came out about what actually happened.

Exactly.  Your initial tendency, before any information was available, was to come up with an imaginary scenario in which the harasser could be excused.  Because you WANT to defend him.  If you didn't want to, you wouldn't keep doing it.

Also, you don't remember what you said, and you didn't re-read.  Just to cherry-pick a few since I'm not going through and pulling all the links again after I lost them last time (and Lynch wants me to go outside):

Yeah again never said that.

http://www.angrynakedpat.com/wwwboard/index.php?topic=3497.msg72220#msg72220

(read over the last page before this to get context)

Never said this.  Ever.

http://www.angrynakedpat.com/wwwboard/index.php?topic=3497.msg73956#msg73956

See you boil down more complex and nuanced points I've made than then skew them with your own bias and agenda.

This is r.ich considering that also in this same thread, you equated me being anti-Iraq and Afghan war with "defending Muslim terrorists" -- apropos of absolutely nothing in this discussion.  Again, I'll have to link so you won't deny this, clearly:

http://www.angrynakedpat.com/wwwboard/index.php?topic=3497.msg72248#msg72248

Anyway, I grow weary of your endless defending of Dharun Ravi.  It's clear that on some level you approve of his actions, and that there is no arguing you out of this.  So I will just say that as far as I am concerned, you are an apologist for him, and I won't change my mind about this until you...stop apologizing for him.

[Dalton]

Here's what I said:

"Yeah?  I guess living in big cities for the last 20 years has given me a skewed vision. "

Here is what you interpreted that as:

"7) If you lived in cities for 20 years, you wouldn't see anything wrong with outing someone."

You take what I say and skew it and twist it to fit your own agenda.  This is the case with every single example you cite here.

Anyway, I grow weary of your endless defending of Dharun Ravi.  It's clear that on some level you approve of his actions, and that there is no arguing you out of this.  So I will just say that as far as I am concerned, you are an apologist for him, and I won't change my mind about this until you...stop apologizing for him.

I approve of his actions?  Ya might wanna take a pill, Kate.

[katy]

Again, actually read over the previous page.  You argued that Dharun might have seen outing someone as no big deal, and others argued back; your response was the thing about living in cities.  

You're not willing to stand by what you've said.  More to the point, it's a way of avoiding confirming what I'm saying is true.  I mean, DO you think outing someone is a big deal?  Do you think that Clementi was upset by being outed to others at his school, and made fun of for his sexuality?

[Dalton]

Again, actually read over the previous page.  You argued that Dharun might have seen outing someone as no big deal, and others argued back; your response was the thing about living in cities. 

But isn't that more of a case of me admitting that I may not have been looking at it from the right perspective?  It it a long way from saying "If you lived in big cities for 30 years you'd see nothing wrong with outting someone".

You're not willing to stand by what you've said. 

I stand by everything I said but not your whacked out interpretations of what I said.

I mean, DO you think outing someone is a big deal?  Do you think that Clementi was upset by being outed to others at his school, and made fun of for his sexuality?

Outting is not cool but I'm not entirely sure that's what happened here.  I think Tyler was upset at having his privacy violated and being made fun of, yes.  Do I think this is the sole reason he killed himself?  No.

[Dobbin]

Again, actually read over the previous page.  You argued that Dharun might have seen outing someone as no big deal, and others argued back; your response was the thing about living in cities.  

You're not willing to stand by what you've said.  More to the point, it's a way of avoiding denying what I'm saying is true.  I mean, DO you think outing someone is a big deal?  Do you think that Clementi was upset by being outed to others at his school, and made fun of for his sexuality?

I think you're not looking at the timeline of when John said what he said. He was trying not to rush to judgement and view the possibilities from different angles. It seems, now with more information and a fleshed out story of who they both were, that they were brittle-ly cordial-ish roommates who wished they'd have other roommates, like a lot of dorm set-ups. It seems like Clementi was in a hyper-fragile state having come out only DAYS before going off to school, uprooting his whole reality now with a new identity that he didn't really know how he fit-- how he defined HIMSELF, exactly, in terms of not so much his sexuality but his sexual identity, which are two different things, and was experimenting with bold hook-ups, coming from a life defined by not being bold about anything. And a mom who he was close to but who he felt rejected him from his coming out.

From a lot of what is now known, and this is a bunch of intuiting more than "knowing," I think it wasn't so much about being outed as gay, as having an existential panic about being a "wild guy" who engages in liaisons, and not knowing HOW to be gay and still be "him," the guy who posted about asthma and violins.

His roommate was a snide douchebag. He may still BE a snide douchebag (he seemed to be more put out by the idea that his roommate was "poor" and tech-averse than he was about being gay, but there's no sugar-coating it-- he was a douche in a very high school lunchroom way about gay things). I don't know him. But he didn't provoke him into killing himself or torture him or threaten him.

[katy]

But isn't that more of a case of me admitting that I may not have been looking at it from the right perspective?

Possibly, if not for...

Outting is not cool but I'm not entirely sure that's what happened here.

...the fact that you're still arguing the exact same perspective!

I think Tyler was upset at having his privacy violated and being made fun of, yes.

YES!!  COMMON GROUND.  WE AGREE ON THIS.

Do I think this is the sole reason he killed himself?  No.

Nobody ever claimed it was -- or even asked this question.

[Dobbin]

Exactly.  Your initial tendency, before any information was available, was to come up with an imaginary scenario in which the harasser could be excused.

Isn't it possible that you feel the same way in the opposite direction? I think you're assuming a stance on Dalton's part (based on a circa 2003 John Dalton, who I think is a lot different than 2012 John Dalton) and arguing it more than reading what he actually said.

[katy]

Dobbin, I love ya, but I kind of wrote off your opinion on this subject after the thing about Clementi being an asshole for killing himself.  I'm sorry.  Your attempts to mediate are not objective.

[Luke Erik]

Dobbin, I love ya, but I kind of wrote off your opinion on this subject after the thing about Clementi being an asshole for killing himself.  I'm sorry.  Your attempts to mediate are not objective.

People who have had someone very close to them commit suicide usually get angry at those who do the same act. In our hearts and minds we're thinking "there is always a better option" but it usually comes out a "what an idiot".

I hate these line by line arguments. I hate them even more when someone is being misquoted.