Rutgers spy cam suicide

[katy]

something of an asshole for doing it.

Really?  I'm surprised and dismayed by your lack of compassion.

And 30 days is extremely light given that the maximum sentence for his charges was 10 years (not that I think that would have been fair, either; I was expecting something like a 12-month sentence).

[BrianLynch]

I think this is just; he didn't kill the kid. Anyone who has ever spent 4 hours in a jail knows that 30 days is a long taste of hell. I think that this kid is a jerk, but I also think the kid who killed himself is largely responsible for killing himself, and something of an asshole for doing it. I don't see any heroes in this story.

The kid is an asshole for killing himself.  I know your reasoning, but Jesus.  No.

[Dobbin]

Really?  I'm surprised and dismayed by your lack of compassion.

And 30 days is extremely light given that the maximum sentence for his charges was 10 years (not that I think that would have been fair, either; I was expecting something like a 12-month sentence).

His parents should spend 30 days in jail for being the kind of people so impossible to come out to that a son kills himself if it becomes public. This roommate was an asshole, I've had asshole roommates before; I moved or got them to move. Hurting your family-- he had an older brother, also gay, who is devastated-- and becoming a selfish martyr is the act of an asshole. I feel no pity for this kid; I feel pity for the people he hurt who loved him. This roommate did not hurt them; Tyler Clementi did.

The roommate was a bad roommate. Tyler may have been a bad roommate. Dumb shit goes on between bad roommates; I don't blame him for this kid's death. I blame him for doing things that are technically illegal, but under the general purview of "being a dick." Absent this selfish, irrational suicide that HAD to have a million other factors associated with it (I think of the football dad from HEATHERS: "I love my dead gay son!" who would not be so happy with a live gay son) no criminal charges would have come up from these dickish actions.

[Randy]

The other issue that NJ Bias laws aren't cut and dry in issues like this: bias intimidation usually involves violence or threat of violence.  I don't think they were ever going to throw the book at him, but 30 days seems - at first glance - way too lenient.  But maybe Dalton is right and he's headed back to India.

[katy]

This roommate was an asshole, I've had asshole roommates before; I moved or got them to move.

I think in life, in terms of understanding psychology and other people's behavior, it is a huge mistake to assume that your experience and personality are comparable to other people's.  You may not have suffered as much as they did.  Or you may have been better-equipped to handle it than they were.  In any case, judging them by your own standards and life is unfair and beside the point.

I feel no pity for this kid

I thought better of you than this.

[Dobbin]

The problem is that we have this 1 size fits all punishment for all things: time in jail, the same you give for raping, murder, arson, robbery, etc.

There should be other punishments that fit crimes. This kid definitely deserves punishment, but I don't know that a large amount of time among rapists, murderers, robbers, assaulters, etc. is the right thing.

I'm sorry if I was inelegant in voicing my thoughts on suicides. They're more nuanced, I guess, in my head, but I get really angry at people who kill themselves when they don't *need* to is really the long and short of it. A friend I spent a bunch of summers growing up with killed himself and it took me a year to realize that the biggest thing I felt was anger at him for doing it, amidst all the other feelings. I guess I still do.

[BrianLynch]

It's just not this black and white.  You have no idea how this kid felt, how hopeless things seemed.  I'm kinda shocked anyone would feel this way, let alone feel okay publicly declaring it.

[Dobbin]

That's kind of my point, though-- it isn't black and white and while the roommate may indeed be(and is!) a complete shit of a person, he isn't responsible for how this kid felt or how hopeless things seemed to him. The black and white view is "this was a happy kid who was bullied, became distressed, then killed himself." I think someone who kills himself after such an incident is clearly in the middle of a lot of other problems, too. The parents putting it all on this asshole roommate is the thing that galls me the most in this whole story. They have 2 gay sons, and one of them was SO freaked out at the idea of them finding out that he felt there was no other option than to end his life. They're much more responsible for his death, in my view, than a dicky roommate with a webcam and a high-school lunchroom sense of prank-based asshole humor. 

[BrianLynch]

That's not what I'm arguing.  You said the kid who killed himself was an asshole.  Now your point is his parents are assholes. Youse all over the place with your asshole labeling. 

[Dobbin]

As I said, I don't see any heroes in this story. I do think suicides are (in addition to being tragic) immensely selfish and self-important acts; in a lot of ways, it is the ultimate revenge-- the "this will show them" act that ends a discussion or a perceived discussion. Do I feel pity and pathos for someone in such a state, who can't see past that 'solution?'

Yes, I do. I just feel more pity for the people left devastated in its wake, who the dead person never has to answer to.  

I tend to think that the parents are probably "more responsible" for his suicide than the roommate. But I can't see absolving a person who goes ahead with killing themself as without responsibility.

I know reading this, text-based, seems like I'm being judgmental or cold; I can only appeal to our long internet history for the benefit of the doubt that I'm not-- this whole case eats up my guts in a million directions, and I feel terrible about it in almost every direction. The parents, may have made a series of terrible, unspoken "DON'T LET US KNOW" choices in raising their kids. The roommate made a series of terrible, unwise and asshole choices. But this kid took away the ability for ANY of their stories to urn out better by his choice in how to deal with them. His choice ended the story; nobody here deserved to die, or be hurt-- Tyler, his family and friends, or even the roommate. Well, maybe he deserved a punch in the gut or a drink in the face.

I dunno.I guess this isn't the best medium for me to try to get my point across, or my point is just not very well received. or a combination of both. . 

[katy]

The black and white view is "this was a happy kid who was bullied, became distressed, then killed himself."

I don't think this is what most people think.  I think most people think that Clementi was in a very vulnerable mindset.  And his parents did know that he was gay; he came out to them not long before leaving for college.  If reports are correct, his dad was pretty accepting and his mom was a little more uncertain; but neither kicked him out of the house or anything.

But still, that is certainly someone in a vulnerable state:  having just come out to close family members, having just moved, having started a VERY new and possible confusing sexual relationship with someone, and being attacked and harassed in that state.  I do not believe Ravi's actions caused Clementi's suicide, but I do believe they provoked someone that was already having these type of thoughts.  That's the precise reason why this type of bias intimidation should be punished more harshly; it is not just innocent horsing-around that anybody should be able to deal with, with the strength of their will.  Some people aren't that strong.

[Amusing Pseudonym]

The parents putting it all on this asshole roommate is the thing that galls me the most in this whole story. They have 2 gay sons, and one of them was SO freaked out at the idea of them finding out that he felt there was no other option than to end his life.

Tyler came out to them before he started college.  It was the older, still living brother who came out later, despite his family having pretty much assumed he was gay for years.   (The New Yorker article says the parents would even ask Tyler about him;  "Why do you think he won't talk to us about it?")

[katy]

As for suicide, I think it's easy to see it as selfish, but I also think it is illogical to do so, and lacks a broader perspective.  The person may have only or primarily been thinking about themselves and their problems when they did it, not about their effect on others (although this is impossible to know for certain).  But by definition it is the opposite of self-preservational; it is the ultimate act of self-destruction, so how can it be selfish?  What does the person gain from it other than an end to their problems -- and if their problems are really that severe or seemed so to them, how can you not find that sad, indicative of mental imbalance which precludes rational judgment, or worthy of compassion?

The other problem is that it is impossible to relate to a suicidal mindset unless you have also been suicidal yourself -- so in a sense, reacting this way is a good thing.  There but for the grace of whatever.  However, I hope you will someday reconsider your attitude towards your friend and this subject in general.  It is easy to sympathize with people who have behaved in a way that you feel is noble.  But it means more, in terms of your own character, to try to find some empathy for people who are/were weaker than you feel you would have been in the same situation.  (And of course, again, you will never really know unless you are ever in that situation, which one hopes you never will be.)

[Hawkboy]

So basically Josh is angry at people who commit suicide because it inconveniences him somehow.

[JCEFalconi]

That's pretty selfish, nobody owns anybody's life. No pacts where broken, no children left abandoned. The parents already blame themselves so that's a moot point. But I agree that if anybody's responsible for a suicide it is the one commiting the act.

I believe Ravi should've been punished for his actions but I just don't buy that he "drove" taylor to end his life, life drove him to end his life. Half a dozen kids seeing him have sex on a webcam would've been gravy compared to the years of bullshit he would've had to deal with if he had chosen to continue living. No crystal balls but I feel that if it wasn't this, sadly, it would've been something else.

I don't think the punishment is lenient. After all, it's all relative: a pampered posh kid who'se never had to answer for his misanthropic behaviour has been exposed worldwide as the awful human being he is, ostracized by society and saddled with something that'll be associated with his (very memorable) name for the rest of his life, he's spent two years cooped up in his house dealing with the stress of basically being in captivity for a long time. Now he'll go to Jail and do a bunch of volunteer hard work (which must be hell for someone who'se never done anything for anybody in his life). I think it fits the crime and will serve as a warning to any other kids wanting play Evil Veronica Mars.