Wolfe
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« Reply #15 on: September 25, 2009, 10:49:41 AM » |
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I agree with you that Michael didn't do anything wrong, I just don't think Jim did anything underhanded.
He did go behind Michael's back on the whole thing. Which would have been perfectly fine if he were shooting for any other job but Michael's. Maybe "underhanded" wasn't the most accurate word, but even trying to get Michael the promotion seemed wrong to me because who is Jim to make a deal that will radically affect Michael's life and career without consulting him? This was a weird episode all around because I thought both Michael and Dwight were completely in the right and Jim and Darryl were the bad guys. |
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Luke Erik
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« Reply #16 on: September 25, 2009, 10:49:58 AM » |
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You really think that Michael lying about Jim's performance constituted him "not doing anything wrong"?
The Toby/Dwight team and Andy were the highlights of the episode for me.
I don't think Michael lied about Jim's performance. He just used Toby's performance report. I request a cheese cart scene with Andy at least every other episode. |
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Wolfe
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« Reply #17 on: September 25, 2009, 10:55:42 AM » |
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I totally don't understand the seeming anger you have at Jim over this, though. He was looking out for Michael, and Michael did screw him over. You really think that Michael lying about Jim's performance constituted him "not doing anything wrong"? I agree that Jim would not make a good manager at all (hasn't he effed up nearly every managerial decision he's made over the course of the series?), but knowing how much Michael worships Jim and knowing that he thinks he's one of the best workers there, whether he is or not, it was really messed up that he would go back on that to cover his own ass.
There was nothing in Toby's report that wasn't 100% in step with what we've seen from Jim throughout the series. And as far as Michael knew, Wallace was seriously considering giving Jim Michael's job and throwing Michael out on the street, which I think entitled him to defend himself and his position. At least he defended it with an official evaluation from a third party rather than with lies. |
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Luke Erik
Posts: 7585
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« Reply #18 on: September 25, 2009, 10:56:20 AM » |
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He did go behind Michael's back on the whole thing. Which would have been perfectly fine if he were shooting for any other job but Michael's. Maybe "underhanded" wasn't the most accurate word, but even trying to get Michael the promotion seemed wrong to me because who is Jim to make a deal that will radically affect Michael's life and career without consulting him?
We're assuming too many things. I'm assuming Jim called corporate letting them know he was offered a different position. Wallace heard of this, and wanting to keep him, offered him a deal. When Jim heard that both he and Michael would benefit, he jumped on it. In the little office world in my mind, Jim did no wrong. |
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Hawkboy
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« Reply #19 on: September 25, 2009, 11:16:02 AM » |
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There was nothing in Toby's report that wasn't 100% in step with what we've seen from Jim throughout the series. And as far as Michael knew, Wallace was seriously considering giving Jim Michael's job and throwing Michael out on the street, which I think entitled him to defend himself and his position. At least he defended it with an official evaluation from a third party rather than with lies.
You seem shocked by what Jim did last night, and yet you say yourself Jim's kind of a lousy employee. I've always seen Jim as a bit of a "shades of grey"-type character - some of his pranks (specifically towards Andy) have been downright cruel, and he did put the moves on an engaged woman, soon after coldly dumping his then-girlfriend on an office booze cruise. And don't even get me started on what a dick he was to Karen. |
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Wolfe
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« Reply #20 on: September 25, 2009, 11:24:53 AM » |
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I've always thought Jim was a bit of a cock. I just thought what he did last night was out of line in a different way than usual.
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BrianLynch
Administrator
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« Reply #21 on: September 25, 2009, 11:26:11 AM » |
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We're assuming too many things. I'm assuming Jim called corporate letting them know he was offered a different position. Wallace heard of this, and wanting to keep him, offered him a deal. When Jim heard that both he and Michael would benefit, he jumped on it. In the little office world in my mind, Jim did no wrong.
This is exactly what I thought happened. I don't think Jim went to him and said "GIVE ME MICHAEL'S JOB". That's not his style. |
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Hawkboy
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« Reply #22 on: September 25, 2009, 11:31:02 AM » |
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I've always thought Jim was a bit of a cock. I just thought what he did last night was out of line in a different way than usual.
Yeah, but again, just because Michael didn't know that Jim's plan entailed Michael getting a promotion as well doesn't make Jim more of a dick than usual. Had Michael not snuck in under a cheese tray, he wouldn't have known anything about it until Wallace offered him the new position. |
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Dan
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« Reply #23 on: September 25, 2009, 12:18:06 PM » |
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Michael didn't lie about Jim - he read Toby's HR file notes on Jim. Toby hates Jim, given his crush on Pam.
Right, but you know Michael worships the ground Jim walks on, so just by him saying he doesn't think he'd do a good job (which he did before he showed Wallace the HR notes) constitutes as a lie to me. We'd all probably do the same thing if we were in Michael's position, I'm not denying that, but it was still a shitty move. |
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Cuppy
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« Reply #24 on: September 25, 2009, 12:26:05 PM » |
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Who here thinks that corporate would be interested in Michael's opinion of Jim if they were going to replace him with Jim on top of firing him.
It's not logical which is pretty much why Michael would come to that conclusion.
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Dan
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« Reply #25 on: September 25, 2009, 01:10:04 PM » |
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Yeah, I've felt like Jim is kind of a d-bag for years now, but I didn't feel like this was that terrible of a move on his part. I don't think Pam would've been all excited for Jim and all "Good luck!" in front of the whole office if his plan was to go in there and completely screw over Michael. Maybe he didn't tell her? I dunno.
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Rev Danny
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« Reply #26 on: September 25, 2009, 01:21:20 PM » |
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My input and thoughts:
1) Jim had no control over how Wallace would present the deal to Michael, as far as he knew Wallace would be straightforward and not first ask about Michael's opinion of Jim, so there was no wrongdoing there.
2) Michael has ALWAYS wanted to be promoted and/or given more power/respect, Jim had no reason to believe that he wouldn't jump at the chance at such a tremendous promotion. Nothing wrong there.
3) Michael gave Wallace a report on Jim that he knew/believed to be biased and inaccurate, that's the same as lying; for all the pranks and shitty things Jim has done, he's always been presented as on top of his shit when it comes to actually doing his job. There were plenty of classes in which I goofed off all the time, but still came out with an A or B for the year/semester.
4) Yeah Jim pushed Michael into his own office and kept the phone on speaker. He's about to get married and have a kid, he's trying to secure a good future for his family during a bad economy, and he found a way to do that and help his boss (a petulant manchild who probably doesn't deserve it) at the same time. Michael screwed this up due to his own ignorance and petty nature, and Jim is justifiably pissed. He took him to his office and kept it on speaker phone because he knew Michael would do exactly what he did in that scene: weasel his way out of what he had said and done.
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Good guys, bad guys - it doesn't matter. Everybody thinks they're righteous.
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Luke Erik
Posts: 7585
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« Reply #27 on: September 25, 2009, 01:36:24 PM » |
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Yeah, I've felt like Jim is kind of a d-bag for years now...
I don't see it. I guess I'll just justify Jim's behavior: He never pursued Pam, just told her his feelings. Pam obviously had feelings for Jim as well. His pranks, not always genuine but always funny, would only bother people without a sense of humor. Karen only slept with Jim for hopes of a promotion. I guess. |
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Wolfe
Posts: 6965
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« Reply #28 on: September 25, 2009, 01:44:03 PM » |
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The speakerphone thing was the clincher for me. I don't care how pissed you are or how little respect you have for your boss, when he's on the phone with HIS boss, you have no right to make a move like that.
And Jim is apparently lazy enough that Idris Elba picked up on it within a day of meeting him.
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Dan
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« Reply #29 on: September 25, 2009, 02:10:43 PM » |
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After thinking about it for a while, I'll admit that Jim was in the wrong a little bit, but only in that he wanted to have his meeting without Michael. He had to have known how that would appear to Michael. And Wallace was in the wrong by not presenting Jim's idea as a possible promotion for Michael as well, that was just poor management on his part.
And when I say I've thought Jim is a d-bag for years, it has nothing to do with Pam, I was in a similar situation with a coworker for a couple years, and since this isn't tv, there was no happy ending, so I'm totally on Jim's side in that regard. I mainly just think of all the pranks, I think we've all been in that situation where a coworker is just goofing off all the time and thinks he's much funnier than he really is, and you don't really want to say anything because then you're the bad guy. Jim puts other people in the office in that position constantly.
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