Doctor Who: where to start?

[Magoonie]

I actually didn't have a problem with Ianto dying.  Dramatically, it makes sense.  The first three, maybe four, parts of CHILDREN OF EARTH were very strong, probably some of the best writing for TORCHWOOD period.  However...I don't know, it's hard for me to describe why the ending of part five rubbed me the wrong way.  Maybe it just amounts to personal taste.  It just felt like one downbeat scenario after another.  Or maybe that's exactly the reaction Davies was going for with the ending.

Actually I understand what your saying and can definitly see why part 5 rubbed you the wrong way, I guess Davis was going for an extreme downer for the last part. That even though the aliens are defeated, its not a happy ending. I definitly would have LIKED a more upbeat ending but thats not the way Davies does things. I do hope though that the new season will be like the first couple of seasons where you have that dark side storyline but its still funny and upbeat. By the way, they are starting casting for three new roles this month and start shooting in December/January with the episodes airing early next summer. Seems a bit long but whatever. Oh btw, do you think Jacks brother is dead now after Torchwood blew up? That would mean that in a few days he lost his lover, his grandson and his brother.

[Rev Danny]

Catherine Tate was easily the best of the modern companions. It was sad the way her story ended in season 4.

That first sentence is madness.

I'll say that her character actually evolved, unlike most every other companion the Doctor has, and she had her moments, but she spent so much time nagging and criticizing I couldn't see why the Doctor kept her around as long as he did.

[Keith]

That first sentence is madness.

I'll say that her character actually evolved, unlike most every other companion the Doctor has, and she had her moments, but she spent so much time nagging and criticizing I couldn't see why the Doctor kept her around as long as he did.

Who was better? Remember, your choices are Rose and Martha.

[harry]

I hated Catherine Tate at first but by the end of season four I was sad to see her go. I was hoping she'd get her memory back in the final special, but all she got was a lottery ticket.

Season 5 was great, but it lacked some of the emotion that Davies' brought to the show. He really knows how to make you care about characters, which I think I why the Ianto people get so mad and swear off the new Torchwood.That sort of reaction I just don't understand. Seems to me if a television show can make you care so much about something that's exactly what you should be watching. I agree that part five wasn't the best but I'll stand by Children of Earth as being some of the best television I've ever seen. I am looking forward to the new season on Starz.

I don't think that Tennant will be back any time soon, either. It helps that he's a fan of the show (unlike Eccleston) but I don't think Davies or Moffat or Tennant would want that to happen until Smith is more established or maybe between regenerations. Also, I think I read either Davies or Moffat say somewhere that the regeneration limit could be written away with one snappy line of dialogue and I have no doubt the show will continue on for years past that, but I hope that the next Doctor is afraid he'll be afraid this is his final death.

Its strange because when this thread started I'd never seen an episode of Doctor Who before and now I've just written my longest post ever on this board about it. Its one of my favorite shows to the point where I even read Doctor Who message boards and listen to Doctor Who audiobooks in the off-season to tide me over. You've ruined me, Keith. Thank you.

[Keith]

Hey, I was in the same boat when I started this thread. I didn't know what I was getting into either.

[Magoonie]

I didn't really get into Doctor Who till halfway through Season 2 on BBC America, there were a few episodes on in a row and I decided to give it a try as nothing else was on. I've been a huge fan ever since even going so far as to watch some of the old series and like Harry I've been going to DW message boards and fan sites. Like I said before though Torchwood I find is the better show of the two.

Actually I understand what your saying about Season 5 lacking the really strong emotion from past seasons. There still was emotion, yes but Smith never really grabbed me in like Tennant did. Not sure if its the actor or writing or both. I'm not saying Smith was bad, actually he was really good but he never pulled on my emotions like Tennant did. I wiill say though, the scene with Amy and Rory where he is trying to convince her who he is THEN her trying to get him to hold on to who he is was a great scene. And the stuff with Rory guarding the box for thousands of years was rather sweet.

I think your right about Tennant and I'm not sure Moffatt wants to use much from Davis run including characters, just kinda nice to hope for that. I really don't get why people are swearing off the new series either, yeah it sucks that such a great character died but keep watching to see what happens to the rest of the characters you care about and see if there will be some new characters you'll really like. Also the writing is excellant, like you said Children of Earth is some of the best television I ever saw. CoE was just so deep and had so many elements to it and as said before, the show really made you think and thats something television just doesn't do anymore. Are there any characters from the past either on Doctor Who or Torchwood you would like to see on the team? I still really like my team idea of Jack, Gwen, Martha Jones, James Marters character and somebody brand new.

I figured if they wanted to they could easily get around the regeneratioon limit, I hope its more than just one snappy line and they go into it more. Oh and I was off by the way, there are 12 regeneration cycles which means there will be 13 Doctors in all and since we're on number 11, we'll get two more until he dies for good. Although I do like the idea of the 13th Doctor being afraid of his final death but then we can have a few episode story arc making it so he has either unlimited or more regenerations.

[Keith]

I love the 'lack' of emotion of the last season. Davies was killing the show with all the soap opera level drama. A 900 year old Time Lord shouldn't be pining over a barely tolerable teenage girl.

[harry]

Are there any characters from the past either on Doctor Who or Torchwood you would like to see on the team? I still really like my team idea of Jack, Gwen, Martha Jones, James Marters character and somebody brand new.

I would like to see Russel Tovey from the Titanic special and the end of The End of Time show back up and of course seeing James Marsters again would be nice. His character always seemed like he should have had more to do after series two. I don't know about Martha Jones coming back. I think there's been enough time and distance between her and the show for her character to be put to bed. Plus, she'd probably bring Mickey along and nobody wants that.

Not sure if its the actor or writing or both. I'm not saying Smith was bad, actually he was really good but he never pulled on my emotions like Tennant did. I wiill say though, the scene with Amy and Rory where he is trying to convince her who he is THEN her trying to get him to hold on to who he is was a great scene. And the stuff with Rory guarding the box for thousands of years was rather sweet.

I think it's all Moffat. I don't think its that he's incapable of reaching making the show more emotional, but I think he's just trying - especially with his first series - to change to level of emotion that's expected. The same way he's made Murray Gold's score less "splashy" and big he wants to tone things down a bit so little moments mean more, I think. The few times Smith has been given something to do (yelling at Amy in The Beast Below, for example) he's pulled them off wonderfully.

I love the 'lack' of emotion of the last season. Davies was killing the show with all the soap opera level drama. A 900 year old Time Lord shouldn't be pining over a barely tolerable teenage girl.

I sort of agree. I'm glad they didn't make The Doctor and Amy into the same sort of love triangle they did with Rose and Mickey. I thought the way they handled with The Doctor wanting them to be together and Amy just wanting to fuck The Doctor was great. What I'm talking more about is scenes like this: Doctor Who- Journeys End- Final Scene (2) (2:33 - 2:44 specifically). Things like that speech and when Rose gets locked on the other side of the dimensional wall get me every time. And that's all Davies - nothing Moffat's done on the show has moved me like those sorts of things. Not that I'm saying it never will or can't, its just an aspect I miss.

I know a lot of people feel the opposite. They thing Davies' injected too much unnecessarily sadness into The Doctor's character, but I eat that stuff up, I guess.

[Taitdog]

I know a lot of people feel the opposite. They thing Davies' injected too much unnecessarily sadness into The Doctor's character, but I eat that stuff up, I guess.

I'm with you here.  As someone who watched the old show growing up, we definitely needed a bit of a change in the character for this new series.  In the old series, he had moments of sadness, but by the next episode, he seemed fine again.  I liked how Davies showed that the many centuries of the Doctor's life were starting to take a toll on him, especially after the Time War.  And at times, in the old series, whenever companions left, he had a few seconds of introspection but then moved on.  In the new series, there's actually weight to when the companions leave.  Rose and Donna's exits in particular pulled at the heart strings, and I never thought a Doctor Who episode could do that (aside from "Earthshock" which I saw when I was 8 years old and didn't see Adric's death coming at all).

Moffatt's shows may not have had the level of emotion that Davies put in, but it had its moments.  Rory fading away during the second part of the Silurians episode, along with Amy's reaction and slow descent into forgetfulness and the Doctor's reaction while watching all of this, gave the whole "crack in time" story arc a harsh new significance.  The ending of the Van Gogh episode did some heart string tugging as well.

[Magoonie]

What I'm talking more about is scenes like this: Doctor Who- Journeys End- Final Scene (2) (2:33 - 2:44 specifically). Things like that speech and when Rose gets locked on the other side of the dimensional wall get me every time. And that's all Davies - nothing Moffat's done on the show has moved me like those sorts of things. Not that I'm saying it never will or can't, its just an aspect I miss.

I know a lot of people feel the opposite. They thing Davies' injected too much unnecessarily sadness into The Doctor's character, but I eat that stuff up, I guess.

Yeah I love stuff like that too, when a show can make me cry I consider it a definite win. Stuff like that and The Doctor saying goodbye to all his past companions, on TW killing off BOTH Owen and Toshiko at the same time( "Why should I stop?" "Because your breaking my heart") are so great to me.  

Moffatt's shows may not have had the level of emotion that Davies put in, but it had its moments.  Rory fading away during the second part of the Silurians episode, along with Amy's reaction and slow descent into forgetfulness and the Doctor's reaction while watching all of this, gave the whole "crack in time" story arc a harsh new significance.  The ending of the Van Gogh episode did some heart string tugging as well.

Yeah there were some great emotional scenes in the new DW season, I was shocked when Rory died and then watching Amy just forget about him was a killer. Plays on some of my worst fears too, either myself or somebody I love not remembering and losing their mind.

[Brandon]

Plus, she'd probably bring Mickey along and nobody wants that.

Oh thank god. I thought I was the only person with an intense, irrational hatred of that guy! In fact, I disliked him and Rose (not as much Mama Tyler) that it almost ruined David Tennant for me. In his first episode he gets six lines, then gets knocked out for half an hour and it's all about the boring, obnoxious humans, I almost turned it off.

There's too much stuff to quote, so I'll just start fresh re: Children of Earth. It took me ages to slog through the first two series of Torchwood. I love the characters, and the actors are across the board phenomenal (Jack and Ianto, especially), but the writing always bothered me quite a bit. I felt like, even more than Doctor Who, they got waaaaaaay too wrapped up in Alien of the Week stuff to the point where it felt like there was no character stuff. When the finally started letting the episodes be a bit more loose towards the end of the first series (the stuff with the people from the 40s and the pilot lady) it get really great really quickly. I was hoping the second series would be better, and the first episode is maybe the best single episode they ever did, but the next ten just bored me to death. Even all the stuff with ZombOwen seemed to get pushed under the rug by the next episode in favor of some dumb space monster.

But Children of Earth...holy crap! This is easily one of the best things I've ever seen, and definitely one of, if not the best, piece of Doctor Who related film making I've ever seen! This was what I always wanted Torchwood to be, but felt like they were never willing to let it be. I feel like this is because Russell Davies was far more involved with this, it seems, than the rest of Torchwood. In his book, The Writer's Tale, he pretty much says that Torchwood kinda became the bastard step-child of Doctor Who, and he wasn't able to really devote much, if any of his time, to the second series (he doesn't have a writing credit on any of them), but when it gets to Children of Earth he seems reinvigorated and incredibly excited by the whole affair and it definitely shows. Plus, you can't lose when you've got Peter "Malcolm Tucker" Capaldi as one of your main characters.

Speaking of The Writer's Tale: it's an incredibly interesting look at how Russell wrote all of that stuff. It follows the production of the show from Series 4 until the final David Tennant special, as chronicled in e-mails between RTD and a writer for the Doctor Who magazine. It's full of really cool insights onto the craft of writing, just how difficult it is to work on a show with such a massive scale/cultural footprint, being respectful to the past but also to the future (The debate over the fate of the woman from The Waters of Mars is incredibly interesting. BBC didn't WANT her to go out the way she did, but Russell knew you couldn't do it any other way and stuck to it), and, most of all, how much Russell wanted to bang Ianto Jones and Midshipman Frame.

[Brandon]

(Heeeeey, so I'm bumping this despite having made the last post. Yes.)

Did anybody watch the Christmas special last night? I thought it was absolutely wonderful! The Christmas specials, as a whole, haven't ever really done much for me. I really love David Morrissey in The Next Doctor but got bored with all the cyberlady stuff after they un-Doctored him, and End of Time is stellar but doesn't really feel like a "Christmas special." This thing, though...hell of a lot of fun, and the design of the planet was really really cool. Gambon was fantastic, and basically every one of Matt Smith's lines was charming and wonderful. Plus, we got an interesting look into Amy and Rory's sex life, which I was surprised they got away with (subtle as it was).

On a side note I told me girlfriend that next year we should go as the Policewoman and The Centurion for Halloween, and she seems more excited than I am. She's a keeper!

I've also been delving into the older, Tom Baker and Peter Davison episodes and am enjoying them quite a bit. There's a lot of cool, funky weirdness there. Tom Baker makes some of the best faces I've ever seen

City of Death (I think) is fantastic and incredibly cinematic, which is a word that the old series could have been a little more familiar with. Plus the Douglas Adams writing is hilarious. The score is really fantastic, too.

The Ark In Space - Incredibly, astoundingly dry, but a fun little retelling of, essentially, Alien with a kinda bleak ending.

The Deadly Assassin - Yeah, that was fun. Tom Baker in that nutty Time Lord hat is kinda great. One of my favorite moments from old Who is when he's running around in, essentially, the Matrix and all this surreal shit is happening. He's down on the ground, which is also a mirror, and sweeps some sand away only to reveal a creepy, laughing clown.

Tom Baker seems like the weirdest dude, and I kinda love it. He's hysterical in the documentaries and commentaries. There's a commentary that opens silently, until his face appears, and he exclaims "Yes! Yes! That's me, Tom Baker! (Laughing) Still alive, you know!"

[sean]

I don't get BBC America, but I do have Netflix instant streaming and, while I'm waiting for the Matt Smith season to show up, I'm planning to go back and watch the new eps straight through (never watched them in any sort of order, probably several episodes I never saw).  My folks and I didn't have anything to watch on Christmas, and I wasn't quite ready to leave for a party yet, so I said, "Hey, let me just show you 'Blink'" and now they totally get it and want to see more.  Me, I was just surprised that it was Martha instead of Rose.

[Taitdog]

"A Christmas Carol" was really, really good.  Steve Moffat's writing boggles my mind sometimes, with the way he conceals the way things in his stories work for so long and that they hold up upon repeated viewings.  I'm very interested to see where the new season is going.  I read someplace that this season is going to be split up and that the cliffhanger, as Moffat describes, will be a "game-changer."

Gambon was a great guest-star.  I liked how they presented Christmas future.  And Matt Smith is really coming into his own.

After so long being on the fringe, it's finally good to be a Doctor Who fan again.

[nate.3.0]

Guys, kinda off topic, but he started this topic so, for those in the know... How's Keith been?